Manage Your Leadership Shadow.. So It Doesn't Manage You with Dr. Will Sparks

How do great leaders actualize their highest potential? Self-awareness is foundational for both leadership effectiveness and personal growth. As famed Swiss psychologist Carl Jung once said, “We don’t become enlightened by pretending to be perfect. Instead, we step into our brightest light and highest potential when we dare to face our shadow in the darkness.” In this episode, Dr. William Sparks, walks us through his leadership assessment tool and framework for better understanding our dominant motive needs. He’ll also walk us through some ways to manage our leadership shadows so they don’t manage us.  Tune in to the very end for Will's take on his most recently encountered paradigm shift.

Guest Information
Will Sparks serves as the Dennis Thompson Chair & Professor of Leadership at the McColl School of Business at Queens University of Charlotte. Concurrently he serves as the Managing Director for William L. Sparks & Associates, a leader, team and organization development professional services firm.

He is the author of “Actualized Leadership: Meeting Your Shadow & Maximizing Your Potential” (2019, Society for Human Resource Management Publishing), which debuted as an Amazon #1 Best Seller.

His TED Talk “The Power of Self Awareness” was released in 2018. He holds a Ph.D. in Organizational Psychology from The George Washington University’s School of Business and Public Management.

https://drwillsparks.com/

Want to find out what your leadership style is? Take the free, ALP short assessment here.

Transcript

[kayshia_kruger]: 0:01

hi well

[will_]: 0:01

oh

[kayshia_kruger]: 0:02

how are you

[will_]: 0:04

morning casa i'm doing fine how are you

[kayshia_kruger]: 0:06

i'm doing amazing i am so excited to talk with you about actualized leadership and managing your shadow and i think it's really relevant quote to kind of open up our talk with today you're very familiar with carl young and we'll get into that in a little bit but i love this quote that he said which is until you make the conscious conscious it will direct your life and you will call it fate i think that's

[will_]: 0:35

m

[kayshia_kruger]: 0:35

so relevant to what we're going to talk about today what comes to mind for you

[will_]: 0:40

well

[kayshia_kruger]: 0:41

we'll

[will_]: 0:41

the

[kayshia_kruger]: 0:41

see

[will_]: 0:41

fallacy of fate essentially to build off of young's comment there is that we when we fail to recognize our own darkness our shadow when we when we avoid it or ignore it or deny it repress it we projected on to other

[kayshia_kruger]: 0:54

all

[will_]: 0:54

people there

[kayshia_kruger]: 0:55

i

[will_]: 0:55

all of these mechanisms we used to avoid facing ourselves and when we're in that state we want to chalk up our shortcomings or our disappointments are set backs to fate you know the stars were a line for me or you know fate was out to get me and so

[kayshia_kruger]: 1:13

m

[will_]: 1:13

young was very clear that there's no such thing as fate it's your shadow that you that an individual has failed to recognize and to begin to integrate and that when we look back on our life and we see re occurring patterns of less than

[kayshia_kruger]: 1:27

a

[will_]: 1:27

optimal outcomes if not outright dis function

[kayshia_kruger]: 1:30

m

[will_]: 1:30

you know

[kayshia_kruger]: 1:31

m

[will_]: 1:31

that to the you know sort of the unaware maybe immature individual they want to say well fate was against me the stars weren't ling ling but to a

[kayshia_kruger]: 1:40

fuck

[will_]: 1:40

more self aware individual who's willing to take ownership there know they can do some deep reflection and

[kayshia_kruger]: 1:46

the

[will_]: 1:46

say now that was actually me causing that pattern of this function i colluded of with myself and my shadow and so i think there's a tremendous insight in that quote from young related to how we sort of

[kayshia_kruger]: 2:00

ourselves

[will_]: 2:00

trip ourselves

[kayshia_kruger]: 2:00

always

[will_]: 2:01

up always tell people when we shoot ourselves in the foot shadow usually pulled the trigger and that is but we want to we don't we want to be a victim so we want to say that was fate or the stars but in fact it was it was ourselves

[kayshia_kruger]: 2:12

it sounds similar to the concept of locus of control like that internal and external locus of control around your mindset but all of this shadow concept were really plays heavily into your framework for leadership can you talk to me a little bit about that

[will_]: 2:32

yeah so

[kayshia_kruger]: 2:33

for

[will_]: 2:33

my research has been focused on understanding what

[kayshia_kruger]: 2:36

i

[will_]: 2:36

drives our behavior and sort of the light side of that and the dark side of that

[kayshia_kruger]: 2:42

a step

[will_]: 2:42

and steps that we can take to stay in the light more often than the dark if you will and i call that an actualized leader which is realizing our actualizing an individual s highest potential and sort of living and leading on purpose and there are three motive

[kayshia_kruger]: 3:00

it's

[will_]: 3:00

needs that the late harvard psychologist david mac ellen identified achievement are you know strong driven for success and recognition very well disciplined individuals then there's the need for affiliation which are in my model those are the firmer styles and that's relationship driven warm friendly pathetic encouraging supportive and then the third is the need for power or the need for control and i call that style the asserter style and that's confident and candid courageous

[kayshia_kruger]: 3:33

with

[will_]: 3:33

and so

[kayshia_kruger]: 3:33

the

[will_]: 3:33

with those

[kayshia_kruger]: 3:34

style

[will_]: 3:34

three styles and all of those positive things that go with them there are three unique leadership shadows and i think that's that's my contribution is understanding that there are unique limitations with those and so for the achiever its of fear of failure the management trap is

[kayshia_kruger]: 3:51

i

[will_]: 3:51

that the individual becomes micro micro manager under stress and the iron is increase the likelihood that they're either going to fail artificially limit the trajectory of their success

[kayshia_kruger]: 4:04

they're

[will_]: 4:04

by

[kayshia_kruger]: 4:04

all

[will_]: 4:04

their own doing by their need to micro manage every detail so the fear failure is the first leadership shadow of the second leadership shadow is a fear of rejection the fear of rejection is related to the affirmer style and that's the relationship driven warm and friendly

[kayshia_kruger]: 4:19

they're

[will_]: 4:19

their management trap if you will or their killiseal under stress is conflict avoided

[kayshia_kruger]: 4:24

m

[will_]: 4:25

so

[kayshia_kruger]: 4:25

m

[will_]: 4:25

when they need to have a candid conversation or crucial conversation when they need to give candid feedback or they need to enforce boundaries both personal and professional they tend to be overly accommodating avoid conflict or sugar coat the truth and in doing so again the irony is that they increase the likelihood that they're going to experience what they're trying to avoid which in this case is rejection or separation and then the third leadership shadow is a fear of betrayal in the fear of

[kayshia_kruger]: 4:54

oh

[will_]: 4:54

betrayal is the shadow of the asserter style so under stress these individuals become controling arrogant condescending and very often the people around them whether it's a personal or professional setting

[kayshia_kruger]: 5:10

a

[will_]: 5:10

will often eject as soon as they can they may leave and go to another company or another division or department within a company or another relationship um and to the assertor it feels like a betrayal but in fact it's there their own sort of undoing it's their shadow that's created that

[kayshia_kruger]: 5:27

man

[will_]: 5:27

their management tramp is creating dependency

[kayshia_kruger]: 5:30

m

[will_]: 5:31

in

[kayshia_kruger]: 5:31

m

[will_]: 5:31

others and so you know the very serious consequences these are you know you can identify you can recognize those patterns for folks that are willing to be open enough and vulnerable enough to that sort of self awareness it can quite literally transform a person's life but they have to be willing to

[kayshia_kruger]: 5:51

here

[will_]: 5:51

sit in that very uncomfortable area of vulnerability and ownership for how they've at least in part contributed this sort of classic and very predictable patterns of dis function that we often see

[kayshia_kruger]: 6:05

yeah just the fear of all of these shadows that you're discussing and you're talking about with all of the different leadership styles it seems controversed in the workplace to discuss you know our weaknesses opportunities for development in terms of like what's trending in the research and what people are putting out there um you talk a little bit about that in your book when you when you talk about you know it's not a strength finder culture can you share a little bit more about that

[will_]: 6:37

yeah so

[kayshia_kruger]: 6:38

that's a rat

[will_]: 6:38

that's a

[kayshia_kruger]: 6:39

really

[will_]: 6:39

great

[kayshia_kruger]: 6:39

appreciate

[will_]: 6:39

i really appreciate you asking that because i was actually talking about this yesterday on a client engagement

[kayshia_kruger]: 6:45

you know

[will_]: 6:45

you know we live now in a string finders culture so i think that it's we you know you can't even use the word if i use the word weakness in a m b a class i'm probably going to get danged by a couple of students who don't like that word because it has negative connotation but in fact it's supposed to have a negative

[kayshia_kruger]: 7:03

m

[will_]: 7:03

connotation because if we're gonna talk about strength have to understand the counterpart to that and so

[kayshia_kruger]: 7:10

my second

[will_]: 7:11

my

[kayshia_kruger]: 7:11

chapter

[will_]: 7:11

second chapter

[kayshia_kruger]: 7:12

book

[will_]: 7:12

in

[kayshia_kruger]: 7:12

actually

[will_]: 7:12

my book actualized

[kayshia_kruger]: 7:13

hit

[will_]: 7:13

leadership is really sort of taking on this strength finders mentality

[kayshia_kruger]: 7:16

a yes

[will_]: 7:17

because playing to your strength and in your strength that's half of the self awareness equation and it's important but it's also knowing where you go under stress and and that is a real limitation

[kayshia_kruger]: 7:29

yeah

[will_]: 7:29

that can be a career limiting or

[kayshia_kruger]: 7:31

make

[will_]: 7:31

career

[kayshia_kruger]: 7:31

ready work

[will_]: 7:31

derailer that and it's helping a person understand that i think we actually do individuals a disservice

[kayshia_kruger]: 7:38

hm

[will_]: 7:38

we sugar coat the truth and we only focus on strength and we don't hold up that mirror to say here's the other side of that and so i think so yeah culturally it may

[kayshia_kruger]: 7:48

they

[will_]: 7:48

not

[kayshia_kruger]: 7:48

were

[will_]: 7:48

be

[kayshia_kruger]: 7:48

now

[will_]: 7:48

in favor now but it reminds me as you know ca'm a big fan of the band rush and one of my favorite lyrics from their

[kayshia_kruger]: 7:56

i

[will_]: 7:56

one of their songs is that you can twist perception reality won't budge and so what may be popular or what you know what may be trending sometimes is a twist of perception

[kayshia_kruger]: 8:07

how about

[will_]: 8:07

but

[kayshia_kruger]: 8:07

to

[will_]: 8:07

reality standing there staring us straight back in the face and so no

[kayshia_kruger]: 8:11

her

[will_]: 8:11

matter how hard we try to

[kayshia_kruger]: 8:13

way

[will_]: 8:13

move away from that and try to use different words or different languages at the end of the day we're talking about things that we do to ourselves that are negative and if you want to call them a weakness or limitation or an opportunity for development however you want to frame it we've got to come to grips with that so that we can so that we can avoid it that's the whole point of this if we if we are delusional and we deny that we just want to talk about strength i've seen it in my almost thirty years now of teaching and consulting the pattern as carl young said it repeats over and over and over until a person has the sort of the courage and he and the awareness

[kayshia_kruger]: 8:50

yeah

[will_]: 8:51

sort of take a hard look at himself or herself

[kayshia_kruger]: 8:54

and growth should not be comfortable right it should cause this comfort because if you don't have that discomfort you won't move right there is no reason to pivot there's no motivation to change in my opinion

[will_]: 9:07

well yeah the famous american philosopher eric offer said an order now to create that sort of transformation to dispose the soul to action you have to upset its equilibrium

[kayshia_kruger]: 9:19

m

[will_]: 9:19

so to dispose the soul to action i think dispose the soul to transformation you have to upset its equilibrium so if you want to stay

[kayshia_kruger]: 9:27

so

[will_]: 9:28

in the shallow end of the self awareness pull that have incremental improvement where you're modifying your behavior or you're making you small steps and that that's fine but if you want to be in the deeper end of true transformative growth you can't say enough positive affirmations to get you there to truly transform and have that profound experience that it

[kayshia_kruger]: 9:50

here

[will_]: 9:50

will require upsetting your equilibrium and i think that is that sort of deeper end of the self awareness pool

[kayshia_kruger]: 9:56

as

[will_]: 9:56

and that's sort of

[kayshia_kruger]: 9:57

i

[will_]: 9:57

where i play if you will that that's that's my area of research and consulting is focused on transformation as opposed to sort of incremental improvement

[kayshia_kruger]: 10:08

so so what's the goal here then when we're doing this leadership work this shadow work what is the goal for for me as a leader in an organization or manager of an organization what am i trying to accomplish

[will_]: 10:24

i think the most basic level is to is the realization that most things that you haven't accomplished or i haven't accomplished a result of our shadow

[kayshia_kruger]: 10:33

m

[will_]: 10:33

it's it is reclaiming our personal freedom but with that comes total responsibility and so you know that's the double edged sword because if i'm going to be totally free and then take total owners that i'm responsible the good and the bad for the winds and the losses and so i think that ultimately we do this work so that we can really step into our brightest light our brightest future our highest potential and be as successful and as happy and as authentic as we are my personal belief is that we are meant to be but it is it requires that sort of deep reflection and hard work that it entails sometimes it's my personal view that is worth every second it's worth every tear it's worth every you know grueling sort of night of where you can't sleep and you know all those sort of things i've been there

[kayshia_kruger]: 11:26

hm

[will_]: 11:26

and it's tough but on the other side of it is a sense connection it's a sense of greater peace of not being driven out of fear or ego it's being much more settled um and again my personal view it is worth it but

[kayshia_kruger]: 11:42

in a lot of

[will_]: 11:42

i

[kayshia_kruger]: 11:42

people

[will_]: 11:42

think a lot of people avoid that because of the short term pain is often a part of that growth process

[kayshia_kruger]: 11:50

and there's this concept so you have a tool an assessment tool that you can use to determine which leadership style is your primary style and then the corresponding shadow but you also modulating variable right it's self awareness and it determines the assessment report tells you what level of self awareness you're at and you know what does that mean like if i'm higher and self awareness what does that mean for me if my style is an assertor which it is

[will_]: 12:21

yeah

[kayshia_kruger]: 12:21

by the way

[will_]: 12:21

so

[kayshia_kruger]: 12:21

i'll just put it out there when

[will_]: 12:22

yes

[kayshia_kruger]: 12:23

you know that

[will_]: 12:24

i

[kayshia_kruger]: 12:24

yeah

[will_]: 12:24

do know that me too so we're kindred spirits there so the self awareness is sort of

[kayshia_kruger]: 12:31

that's

[will_]: 12:31

part

[kayshia_kruger]: 12:31

so

[will_]: 12:31

of

[kayshia_kruger]: 12:31

hard

[will_]: 12:31

that self actualization score that you receive in the full assessment and in the self actualization

[kayshia_kruger]: 12:38

sexually

[will_]: 12:38

is essentially another way of thinking about resiliency it

[kayshia_kruger]: 12:44

as

[will_]: 12:44

estimates the degree of how reactive a person is versus resilient and so

[kayshia_kruger]: 12:50

you

[will_]: 12:50

the higher your self actualization the more resilient you are unless reactive so in other words the higher that self actualization less likely the individual is going to engage in shadow behaviors

[kayshia_kruger]: 13:02

m

[will_]: 13:03

it takes a lot more to get triggered and and they tend to be less intense but the inverse of that is true as well so if i'm low in self actualization

[kayshia_kruger]: 13:11

we're

[will_]: 13:11

and i'm lower in self awareness then i'm sort of walking through life and there can be body parts in my way that i'm blindly oblivious to but it's because that low self actualization can make a person highly

[kayshia_kruger]: 13:23

at

[will_]: 13:23

reactive as opposed to resilient so they're going through life in this hyper sort of re activity mode um

[kayshia_kruger]: 13:30

that

[will_]: 13:30

and and that is that often gets us into trouble because we do and say things that we later regret or you know our ego gets in the way and so we make decisions based on now perceive threat instead of a rational know sort of analysis of whatever the whatever the stimulus might be and so there's that's the connection piece that it is

[kayshia_kruger]: 13:53

a

[will_]: 13:53

the self actualization is a barometer essentially a resiliency and it moderates a person's leadership shadow is activated now the self awareness piece of this is crucial because self awareness is a necessary but insufficient condition

[kayshia_kruger]: 14:09

kay

[will_]: 14:09

for self actualization in other words you can't be highly

[kayshia_kruger]: 14:12

a

[will_]: 14:12

self actualized

[kayshia_kruger]: 14:13

yes

[will_]: 14:13

unless you have a high degree of self awareness but self awareness

[kayshia_kruger]: 14:18

what

[will_]: 14:18

alone you can be highly aware and not care i mean people can have a very high degree of self awareness not do a damn thing with it and so i can be highly self aware and just not care or tell people that's the way god made me or love it or leave it you know that's who i am and so those individuals they've got the first step there but they haven't gotten to a point yet where they're motivated to say you know i can't get there from here and there may be a happy relationship there may be you know a successful business there may be a thriving career or an effective parent

[kayshia_kruger]: 14:56

the

[will_]: 14:56

or whatever whatever that is and not getting there usually means i've got to do some self work in some self reflection

[kayshia_kruger]: 15:04

gontotake

[will_]: 15:04

and i've got to take that awareness and translate that into a truly change in the way i'm showing up in the way i'm thinking about myself and others in the way i interact with others so

[kayshia_kruger]: 15:14

so were

[will_]: 15:15

the self awareness piece is critical to self actualization it's absolutely necessary but by itself i know some people that are very high and self awareness and aren't it a place yet where they're willing to do anything about it so it's a

[kayshia_kruger]: 15:29

what turns

[will_]: 15:29

interesting

[kayshia_kruger]: 15:29

that switch on for someone to be able to move from not doing anything about it because i don't care to then wanting to

[will_]: 15:37

yep

[kayshia_kruger]: 15:37

what's that switch that light

[will_]: 15:40

that switch is hitting rock bottom

[kayshia_kruger]: 15:41

oh

[will_]: 15:42

that switch

[kayshia_kruger]: 15:42

wow

[will_]: 15:42

is when e comes home and half of the closets cleaned out or when the person is demoted from work or or released from their position may be terminated

[kayshia_kruger]: 15:53

ask us

[will_]: 15:54

or passed over for another promotion or another failed relationship you know on the scrap heap i mean it so usually no let me qualify that usually and sadly it takes a person hitting rock bottom before they're willing to say okay maybe it's me reason that i as you know i published my tettalk the power of self awareness in two thousand and eighteen and the reason that i did that was to tell my story which is very personal and you know does not put me in a good light at all and i was trying to tell that story to say hey if this can help one person avoid hitting rock bottom avoid coming home and seeing the closet cleaned out of whatever that may be it will help motivate a person to make this change before you know you have really no the choice which was my my personal situation so

[kayshia_kruger]: 16:46

no

[will_]: 16:46

sadly though it's been my experience that while some people can be can see the distant

[kayshia_kruger]: 16:51

i

[will_]: 16:51

early warning light of hey i really need to make a change i think often human nature is you don't believe it especially if you're an assertor you're not going to believe it until that day comes when you've got nowhere else to go so that that's sort of the impetus for people that

[kayshia_kruger]: 17:09

it's

[will_]: 17:09

leads to this sort of willingness or motivation to do this deeper shadow work

[kayshia_kruger]: 17:14

so it sounds like there's two choices you can either let life take its course and be forced into hitting rock bottom or you can be aware of the need for growth and make that always to choose discomfort over comfort

[will_]: 17:30

yeah that's exactly right i mean people can

[kayshia_kruger]: 17:33

on

[will_]: 17:33

you know and i think sometimes you get close to rock

[kayshia_kruger]: 17:36

m

[will_]: 17:36

bottom sometimes you see like this is you know we've got a we've got an issue here

[kayshia_kruger]: 17:42

i don't

[will_]: 17:42

i know people that have had some pretty significant health scares they've gotten some really serious diagnosis they've had you know so sometimes it's a health issue it can be the loss of a parent where a person really steps back and reflects you know after that occurs it can be you know the ending of a relationship

[kayshia_kruger]: 18:01

well have

[will_]: 18:01

there

[kayshia_kruger]: 18:01

i

[will_]: 18:01

are a lot of different things that that can cause a person to sort of say i need to step back and really think about how i'm showing up and how i may be contributing to whatever pattern of negative outcomes may be occurring in an individual's life so you know there's that aspect

[kayshia_kruger]: 18:17

there is

[will_]: 18:17

and

[kayshia_kruger]: 18:17

the

[will_]: 18:17

then there

[kayshia_kruger]: 18:18

press

[will_]: 18:18

is the other aspect of individuals that sort of just are going to go through life blindly

[kayshia_kruger]: 18:24

your

[will_]: 18:24

of unaware and and and always the victim and here's that's the part

[kayshia_kruger]: 18:28

hm

[will_]: 18:28

of that person has low awareness you can listen to him it's always the other person it's always

[kayshia_kruger]: 18:34

yeah

[will_]: 18:34

the you know the other person's fault it's always the company's fault it's always and sometimes

[kayshia_kruger]: 18:39

as

[will_]: 18:40

it is the other person's

[kayshia_kruger]: 18:40

a

[will_]: 18:41

fault and sometimes people do work for

[kayshia_kruger]: 18:43

how

[will_]: 18:44

bad organizations

[kayshia_kruger]: 18:45

i

[will_]: 18:45

or whatever that sometimes that's true but when you hear it over and over again sometimes you just got to say you know maybe you're the one common denominator

[kayshia_kruger]: 18:52

yeah it's a pattern

[will_]: 18:52

in this maybe there's a patterne for you to and i think there are some people that would rather be the victim and not take that ownership and in fact there's a famous psycho enlist eric from who wrote a book called escape from freedom in the central thesis of that book is that tragically a lot of people

[kayshia_kruger]: 19:11

there

[will_]: 19:11

would rather you know be a victim and forego that sort of

[kayshia_kruger]: 19:15

still

[will_]: 19:15

responsibil

[kayshia_kruger]: 19:16

greater

[will_]: 19:16

you and freedom

[kayshia_kruger]: 19:17

hm

[will_]: 19:17

and they spend their entire lives trying to escape that than to own that take that responsibility with that comes the ownership the freedom and then ultimately the accountability for the life that we live

[kayshia_kruger]: 19:30

yeah and we're talking about the actualized leader profile in the framework or context of the workplace but it extends beyond that right so if i'm an assertor at

[will_]: 19:40

a

[kayshia_kruger]: 19:40

work i'm an asserter in my personal if as well right is that is that how it works

[will_]: 19:45

yeah

[kayshia_kruger]: 19:45

okay

[will_]: 19:47

that's that's exactly and i can tell you that having done this work for a lot of years i very often get feedback that people get

[kayshia_kruger]: 19:55

just as far

[will_]: 19:56

just

[kayshia_kruger]: 19:56

as

[will_]: 19:56

as much if not more out of it in their personal lives

[kayshia_kruger]: 19:59

hm

[will_]: 20:00

they do in their professional lives but yes

[kayshia_kruger]: 20:02

i

[will_]: 20:02

so let's take a sort of for example you know they're there at their best they're charming there there can be carismatic confident decisive you know bold risk taker that propelled the organization to newer heights and and that's very positive stuff they're decisive they're objective their candid um and you know people naturally follow ass orders now the down side of that that under stress if our fear of betrayal shadow is activated you know we can be arrogant condescending aloof you know sort of just this controlling we can embarrass people in front of you know the team and so it creates fear and anxiety in others and so that is a dependent culture and an organizational setting but then when we go home were in control we're in charge we're condescend and why did you do this you know do i have to make all the decisions and so that pattern often repeats itself in our personal lives as well and so the c o of a company that pounds you know their fist and it said people have got to start thinking for themselves i ne creative ideas i need people to be innovative if it's a dependent culture and it probably is

[kayshia_kruger]: 21:08

oh

[will_]: 21:08

the only

[kayshia_kruger]: 21:09

really

[will_]: 21:09

way to really remedy that is for the leader to start off by saying i have helped at least in part create this environment this culture where people are not they're afraid to take a risk they're afraid to push back they're afraid to challenge me i'm going to make a personal change i'm goin to rain that in so that you all

[kayshia_kruger]: 21:27

oh

[will_]: 21:27

step into your to your highest potential the same sort of dynamic would need to occur and a personal relationship as well and it takes time it's not a one and done kind of thing by any stretch but yes the patterns you know that occur at work very often are they repeat themselves in our personal lives as well

[kayshia_kruger]: 21:47

yeah and i'm going to in the show notes after when we publish this episode i'm going to put in the link you have a link to take it and assess the alp for free it's a

[will_]: 21:58

yes

[kayshia_kruger]: 21:59

shorter ssessment version but it does give you your primary leadership style i always encourage those who take it to ask feedback from their spouses from their from their friends and their colleagues as well because those are the individuals like in your personal life that will see you day in and out and they can give you like the most honest front feedback that you know you deserve

[will_]: 22:23

yeah

[kayshia_kruger]: 22:23

to hear

[will_]: 22:24

yeah i mean if you know it's

[kayshia_kruger]: 22:26

i guess

[will_]: 22:26

feedback

[kayshia_kruger]: 22:27

i

[will_]: 22:27

is a gift i

[kayshia_kruger]: 22:27

i

[will_]: 22:28

think the timing of when it's delivered is correlated with how

[kayshia_kruger]: 22:31

yeah

[will_]: 22:31

well it's received so i do think we have to be choose

[kayshia_kruger]: 22:33

i

[will_]: 22:34

the right time you know to provide that kind of fedbeckbut very often those that know us well would be really candid i'm actually working with client right now and we were doing his actualized leader profile the a p and we did the three sixty the a p three sixty three sixty feedback rated him as more of an a firmer which is the friendly warm encouraging but his p self assessment was an intense asserter

[kayshia_kruger]: 22:58

wow

[will_]: 22:58

and he had told me some things that he had add to his you know wife and kids and i thought man that's an asserter just you know and so he had this disconnect between why i think i'm an a farmer and the people i worked with think that i am and so he took the a p home and showed the blue page of the assertor with the strikes

[kayshia_kruger]: 23:17

no

[will_]: 23:17

and the shadow and he said it was unanimous i think he has three three teenage sons and wife were like one hundred percent you're the assertor kind of thing so

[kayshia_kruger]: 23:26

a

[will_]: 23:26

sometimes we fake it a little bit at work

[kayshia_kruger]: 23:28

m

[will_]: 23:28

but the a p is designed to measure what is at our core

[kayshia_kruger]: 23:32

m

[will_]: 23:32

what's really driving us and for the assertor its control and so that was a lot of times and a sorter will sort of mask that with being very friendly and you very very supportive and all of that but they're doing that to manipulate

[kayshia_kruger]: 23:47

yes

[will_]: 23:47

i don't mean necessary in a negative way but there they're they're controlling the outcome but they're doing it with you know they're sort of killing you with kindness instead of

[kayshia_kruger]: 23:56

m

[will_]: 23:56

thor's

[kayshia_kruger]: 23:57

m so

[will_]: 23:57

for the

[kayshia_kruger]: 23:57

it's still control at the end of the day it's just a different vehicle

[will_]: 24:02

absolutely

[kayshia_kruger]: 24:02

we're talking about asserters a lot i know both of me and your asserters but in terms of like how you describe it they seem to be the most natural leaders in an organization but it doesn't mean that an affirmer or an achiever cannot be a great leader in an organization is that correct

[will_]: 24:25

yeah absolutely i mean i know cos that the retired co of pro industry steve mc

[kayshia_kruger]: 24:31

but

[will_]: 24:31

adam who wrote the special introduction for the book he's an actualized former and this i'm one that you know harvard b has ran several companies serves on two or three fortune five hundred corporate boards very very

[kayshia_kruger]: 24:45

oh

[will_]: 24:45

successful i mean

[kayshia_kruger]: 24:46

yeah

[will_]: 24:46

in his career and you know a strong affirmer and then you see strong achievers you know detailed oriented very organized individuals that have that sort of precision and clearly you see those famous achievers or that have been probified by harvard business school or operwentfre and bill gates and tom crews and lady gognyouknow so you see these you know high perform in fact i just saw something this morning where steve obs

[kayshia_kruger]: 25:15

i

[will_]: 25:15

the late steve job from apple his wife just came out with a story that said it took them eight years to agree on a couch because he was so detailed oriented that he was just so down the final detail about what couch he was going to choose and so you see all three styles in business for sure

[kayshia_kruger]: 25:34

h

[will_]: 25:35

but i would say if i had

[kayshia_kruger]: 25:36

m

[will_]: 25:37

to if i just sort of had to estimate i would say that roughly sixty five per cent of the cswite leaders that i've worked with over the last thirty years roughly sixty five per cent have been assorters and that's the c f o the c o o the c e o

[kayshia_kruger]: 25:51

hm

[will_]: 25:52

kind of individuals you know that are that have that sort of decisive bold action willing to a real very candid and kind of thing and so the challenge is that how do i manage that negative side that can come out under stress

[kayshia_kruger]: 26:06

i can't even imagine what an entire c suite team of all asserters would would be like working with or managing them

[will_]: 26:16

well

[kayshia_kruger]: 26:17

do

[will_]: 26:17

i don't i don't even

[kayshia_kruger]: 26:18

oh

[will_]: 26:18

attempt to manage them but there are many that i work with or facilitate and it's interesting at the beginning of the discussion you know people get me talking over each other

[kayshia_kruger]: 26:28

hm

[will_]: 26:29

sorters tend to be skeptical so when they open up their report and they see the sorter style they may want to ask me about well what's the reliability and validity can you tell me scientific you know the science behind this assessment which is a skeptical one of the skeptical sort of traits of the assorter but once they sort of go okay it's it's scientific it's valid it's reliable and especially if they maybe show their spouse or a partner or co worker as that settles in typically the group becomes a little more quiet and reflective and begin to think about how this may be showing up you know at work and at home but an actualized deserter is just unbelievable i mean they are they have all of those positive attributes then they marry them or they couple them with being humble they have marked humility they take themselves less seriously they tend to be a little less formal they don't sit at the head of the table they sit off to the side they don't art meetings by telling declaring what they think and asking if everyone agrees they start meetings by asking people what they think and to participate first they're willing to change their mind they're willing to say i'm sorry they're willing to ask for help so they're these incredible an act when you when you're self actualized as an asserter and you get your ego out of the way it's almost unstoppable because you've got to drive you're decisive you're candid you're bold you've got all of these positive things and when you marry that with humility and asking for help are saying i'm sorry and taking yourself so seriously and admitting when you made a mistake really

[kayshia_kruger]: 28:03

m

[will_]: 28:03

listening to other people not intimidating other people not creating co dependency in others

[kayshia_kruger]: 28:07

oh

[will_]: 28:08

as i said it's

[kayshia_kruger]: 28:09

yeah

[will_]: 28:10

almost unstoppable

[kayshia_kruger]: 28:11

amazing and i just think a lot about this stress and and how you react to stress really points you to those shadow characteristics so if you don't if you're on shore at all bout how your shadow is showing up whether it's in the workplace or in your personal life you can really just think to yourself and reflect on okay when was the last time i was stressed how did i react was it you know a fight flight freeze response what were the did i did i shout did i yell at someone like what was my reaction to that stress response and then you can kind of

[will_]: 28:48

hm

[kayshia_kruger]: 28:48

work your way into one of this les is that is that a good way or a good approach

[will_]: 28:53

you can i mean you can yeah you definitely can do that but it's you know we are we are sort of we can be a little delusional

[kayshia_kruger]: 29:03

yes

[will_]: 29:03

when we start reflecting on you know how we really are and how people really experience

[kayshia_kruger]: 29:07

m

[will_]: 29:07

so i think that the having the a p free now taking that is it's very short and it's a great way to give you a snapshot your dominant motive need and you know the light and the dark that goes with that so i think ou can do it either way that you know that's a thirty second activity and then you get it you know right on your screen or your you know tablet or laptop or whatever and that sort of lays it out and i saw this experience working with a client yesterday when a very intense asserter opened up his report and you know when an he said i feel like i'm he came up to me at the break and he said i feel like i'm getting a reading like a terro

[kayshia_kruger]: 29:48

oh

[will_]: 29:49

card reading he goes there this is he said it's early accurate and it is coming at a very good time based on some conversations he had been having and i don't know if they were at work or at home or both but it's interesting to watch that because a lot of people a lot of times when do this work i'll ask people to self declare what they think

[kayshia_kruger]: 30:07

the

[will_]: 30:08

they

[kayshia_kruger]: 30:08

floor

[will_]: 30:08

are when they hear the descriptions and most people raise their hands to be an achiever

[kayshia_kruger]: 30:12

m

[will_]: 30:12

it turns out that it's achievers are the you know about twenty five to thirty per cent and then ffirmers and assorders are about equal around thirty thirty five per cent or thirty eight per cent each and so achievers are actually at least in my my analysis the lowest and and yet most people self declare as an achiever first so sometimes it's nice to have that assessment piece there so you can go okay well maybe

[kayshia_kruger]: 30:41

hm

[will_]: 30:42

it's often interesting to see someone get in a farmer score and they somehow feel like in a professional setting they're like wait a minute i want to win i want to succeed you know ambitious i'm driven that's all true but you're often is the relationship piece t is and you can be a very steve mc adam and many others you can be very successful business leader is n't a firmer but sometimes there's a little bit of stigma with that because they sort o feel like well maybe i'm too soft i think so but yeah you know so you can you can reflect on the last time you were activated in what happened and what you said or what you did and you might want to couple that with the assessment to see if those a line

[kayshia_kruger]: 31:21

and it goes back to what your primary motive need is not that we don't have those other needs it's what your primary motive need is what's moving you what's going to get you to move it's been so long since i first had taken the assessment i think self declared as an achiever to your point i think i did i was one of those and then i got my results back and i was very scope cal as well just because i immediately saw the shadow characteristic it was like nope not me not me not me right yeah so that

[will_]: 31:55

yep

[kayshia_kruger]: 31:55

was it was a really cool experiment to do i love just self declaring before you get the results again i'm going

[will_]: 32:02

yeah

[kayshia_kruger]: 32:03

to put the link in for that assessment in the show notes but m okay so i get my results back i find out what my style is what do i do now like what's what's the next step

[will_]: 32:17

yeah

[kayshia_kruger]: 32:17

a

[will_]: 32:18

so i think you know the next step is to begin thinking about okay so what are the inherent strengths that i have that are very natural i want to continue to play to those and then where's an opportunity for growth and develop so i think a person has to be motivated to continue to grow and continue to develop both professionally and personally so i think that you know that's sort of the first step in that process and then someone that's wanting to maybe take a deeper dive they can begin to reflect on the shadow element of how this you know is my fear of rejection causing me to be rejected

[kayshia_kruger]: 32:50

m

[will_]: 32:50

or i fear failure causing me to artificially limit my performance and so you know you begin to ask yourself some of those questions and that can often propel a person to start that process of trying to integrate the shadow and this this is it's not an easy you know

[kayshia_kruger]: 33:07

we

[will_]: 33:07

cal

[kayshia_kruger]: 33:07

the

[will_]: 33:07

young

[kayshia_kruger]: 33:07

best

[will_]: 33:08

said the best that any of us can hope for is a lifelong negotiation with the other the other being the shadow so the best that any of us can hope for is a lifelong

[kayshia_kruger]: 33:18

suasion

[will_]: 33:18

negotiation and so that means we have good days and we have bad days and we have to give ourselves some grace when we now don't do our best and learn from our mistakes and recommend ourselves to rededicate ourselves you know trying to grow and develop and be better so i think you know we have to have that long term view that this is a process not a one and done piece component of that so i think that that's a critical element of having that sort of mind set of you know this is a long term plan for my growth and my development but ultimately now while this is sort of a analytical psychology approach or psycho dynamic which accounts for the shadow of the unconscious there's also the behaviral approach which just says you know sometimes that pain of not changing when that becomes greater than the pain of changing i'm all of a sudden i'm motivatind that's in other words that's hitting rock

[kayshia_kruger]: 34:09

that's

[will_]: 34:09

bottom

[kayshia_kruger]: 34:09

rock bottom

[will_]: 34:09

so when the pain shifts when the pain of not changing becomes greater than when i have no other option when i'm at my and when i look back and go man maybe it's me you know that's when a person is often really motivated to start that process and it starts with awareness but then it's not enough to just be aware but you have to take steps to really integrate it in that and you know it's young was wasn't crystal clear about how do we do that what's the difference between integrating the shadow

[kayshia_kruger]: 34:42

hm

[will_]: 34:42

and indulge the shadow you know and so there's a fine line between that as well and it is a trial and error and quite frankly i think it's very unique for everyone i think everyone has sort of an individual or unique process for doing and in fact carl young called he called self actualization individuation

[kayshia_kruger]: 34:58

so

[will_]: 34:59

when you

[kayshia_kruger]: 34:59

at

[will_]: 34:59

individuate the masses and you know you sort of and your true authentic self and you you know you walk your path which is unique to you so i think there's a there's a uniqueness there although there are some general parameters around awareness and acceptance that we are have to go through but ultimately integrating it we have to find that fine line between how do we acknowledge it but maybe not indulge it

[kayshia_kruger]: 35:24

and integrating the shadow to your point provides the creativity insights abundance there's a lot of benefits that come out of the shadow

[will_]: 35:35

yeah there are you don't want to eradicate it you couldn't even if you wanted to so you know but but you don't want to young was very clear that creative insights persistence resiliency there things that come out of the shadow if you've got a problem and you can't sort of you just can't solve it and very often you go to sleep and you have a dream that where you solution becomes very parent or you wake

[kayshia_kruger]: 35:57

hm

[will_]: 35:57

up and you've got your answer that's the shadow you know turning on that problem and you know if ninety five percent of our awareness is in the subconscious then it's like you know where using five or ten per cent of our consciousness but tap into that sort of mega computer that's going to really do that processing for us and help us come up with those creative solutions or creative insight so it's

[kayshia_kruger]: 36:18

yes

[will_]: 36:19

it's not something that we want to eradicate and and yon one of his one of my favorite quotes as he said it's better to be whole than

[kayshia_kruger]: 36:25

m

[will_]: 36:25

perfect so you know people were saying

[kayshia_kruger]: 36:27

my

[will_]: 36:28

well if i can if i can just eliminate the shadow you know then then i'll just always live in the light and he essentially said well that's first of all it's not possible nor is it desirable

[kayshia_kruger]: 36:37

better

[will_]: 36:38

so better to be whole better to acknowledge and integrate this this other this m or missus hyde

[kayshia_kruger]: 36:43

hmm

[will_]: 36:44

our dr jeckell persona better to own that and integrate it than to spend our entire lives trying to ignore it or deny it and that's when we actually feed it and give it more power over us so it's it is an existential choice that we all make even sometimes without knowing it choosing not to decide as a choice and so i think people may defer it or just ignore it but ultimately it's there and it's going to come back if we don't put the energy into acknowledging it and into taking those steps to

[kayshia_kruger]: 37:16

yah

[will_]: 37:16

integrate it in the in my book the entire fourth section of the book the final section is really designed about the transformational journey it provides thoughts around what are the anecdotes for the shadows the anecdote for fear of failure is abundance the anecdote for fear of rejection is connection to your purpose the anecdote for fear betrayal is assurance and so i talked through those

[kayshia_kruger]: 37:40

i

[will_]: 37:40

different anecdotes and the process for trying to go through that journey to sort of realize our highest potential than really

[kayshia_kruger]: 37:49

a

[will_]: 37:49

integrate a darker side

[kayshia_kruger]: 37:51

meet your shadow so you can manage your shadow so it doesn't manage you and this work is never done and as you mentioned in your book which i have here of course i'm a little impartial because mine is in the acknowledgment

[will_]: 38:04

yeah

[kayshia_kruger]: 38:04

so i have to say i have a signed copy though um it stays

[will_]: 38:09

oh

[kayshia_kruger]: 38:10

on my book shelf it doesn't go anywhere but but

[will_]: 38:12

oh

[kayshia_kruger]: 38:13

in this book you as as you mentioned you have antidotes but you also have some developmental resources in the back and the appendencies where you're able to just go through different resources that could help you improve

[will_]: 38:26

hm

[kayshia_kruger]: 38:26

different areas of of the shadow and also the attributes which we didn't get into but maybe i can get you back for a part two we can go in a little bit more on those

[will_]: 38:36

doctor

[kayshia_kruger]: 38:37

but

[will_]: 38:37

yeah

[kayshia_kruger]: 38:37

yeah this is your work it extends past the actualized leader profile we also have the team culture profile and you also have the a p three sixty and all of those kind of work in conjunction to help organizations better leverage this framework to be more better actualized leaders within the organization is that right turn

[will_]: 39:02

that is right i hope to finish the next book

[kayshia_kruger]: 39:05

oh

[will_]: 39:05

actualized team work at the end of this year so i'm hoping for twenty twenty three publication depending on when it gets in the sort of that pipe line process and how long the editing process takes and then as you know be shifting the attention toward actualized coaching and shot to dialogue and the work that you and i have have been discussing and exploring for the last year or so really thinking about you know how can we have coaching conversations that allow an individual to you know let their guard down a little bit and acknowledge that sort of other

[kayshia_kruger]: 39:37

what

[will_]: 39:37

side and what happened when they lost their temper what happened when the shadow was activated so i think there's a lot of work i'm proud of the work i've done in search i've done but i think there's a lot more to do and so that's what gits me up and going every day and i'm looking forward to how this you know affects teams and then coaching and then maybe looking at organizational systems and even maybe larger system so there's a lot of work yet to be

[kayshia_kruger]: 40:03

and

[will_]: 40:03

done

[kayshia_kruger]: 40:03

it's important work so thank you for doing it

[will_]: 40:06

thank

[kayshia_kruger]: 40:07

one

[will_]: 40:07

you

[kayshia_kruger]: 40:07

last question before we wrap up and i like to end all of the episodes of this question what is the most recent paradymeship that you and whether it's related to this work or anything outside of that you're on the spot a little

[will_]: 40:21

yeah that is sort of putting me on the spot let me think about that for a moment the most recent parade well for me you know

[kayshia_kruger]: 40:28

i

[will_]: 40:29

as a psyorganizational psychologist i'm always

[kayshia_kruger]: 40:32

as

[will_]: 40:32

ocessing the processing piece so

[kayshia_kruger]: 40:34

think

[will_]: 40:35

i think that

[kayshia_kruger]: 40:35

o

[will_]: 40:35

it would probably be you know reclaiming a shadow trade it would

[kayshia_kruger]: 40:39

a

[will_]: 40:39

be

[kayshia_kruger]: 40:39

perfect

[will_]: 40:39

something where maybe i realized i was projecting one my shadow qualities on to another individual and and that when i came to that realization that the the trait of that individual that irritated me so much all young said loosely this is a loose quote that which irritates us about others can inform us about ourselves

[kayshia_kruger]: 41:03

m

[will_]: 41:03

something to that effect

[kayshia_kruger]: 41:04

that

[will_]: 41:05

i knew that quote i used to know it and i could now decide it but

[kayshia_kruger]: 41:08

really

[will_]: 41:08

i

[kayshia_kruger]: 41:08

thought

[will_]: 41:08

really

[kayshia_kruger]: 41:09

about

[will_]: 41:09

hadn't

[kayshia_kruger]: 41:09

it

[will_]: 41:09

thought about it until i realized that i was projecting my need for control to person that i thought was gone rolling and that really irritated me and i realized wait a minute that that's that's my tendency when i'm at my worst and so again it's that process of reclaiming that and going okay let me let me be mindful of that and the reason that so powerful is because when we reclaim that shadow trait

[kayshia_kruger]: 41:34

all

[will_]: 41:34

we no longer have that irrational emotional reaction to a person so when we have an emotional reaction to an individual and we can't quite explain it we say well really just i

[kayshia_kruger]: 41:45

it

[will_]: 41:45

really don't like that person don't

[kayshia_kruger]: 41:46

yeah

[will_]: 41:46

like this whatever situation very often that's something about ourselves that we're not willing to acknowledge and so for me it was a person that was controlling and i realized well yeah that's that's my stuff too and when i was able reclaimed that and integrated it i don't have that strong of an emotional reaction anymore because i can sort of smile to myself and go yet that that's me

[kayshia_kruger]: 42:07

that was

[will_]: 42:07

or that was

[kayshia_kruger]: 42:08

yeah

[will_]: 42:08

me maybe

[kayshia_kruger]: 42:09

so we we can see versions of ourselves in in the people that we interact with right and they kind of mirror back to us what we what we need to know i love that that's really interesting thank you for sharing

[will_]: 42:21

that's that's projection the reflection the reflections that we maybe don't want to acknowledge that we know there's something in another person and we just have we really have a strong emotional reaction very often it's a reflection of our shadow that we have failed to acknowledge and when we acknowledge it and accept it that emotional reaction goes away and that's one of the as you said that's that's why we do this work

[kayshia_kruger]: 42:43

well now i'm going to be going through the rest of my day just thinking okay if something irritates me if someone irritates me i'm going to be wondering what part of that is my stuff and i need to work on so thank you

[will_]: 42:57

just remember you got to work hard and play hard too at some point always when i turn it all if i'm like c three po and star wars

[kayshia_kruger]: 43:04

how

[will_]: 43:04

when

[kayshia_kruger]: 43:04

are

[will_]: 43:04

he

[kayshia_kruger]: 43:04

they

[will_]: 43:04

powers down and the eyes go off you know do this hard work and engage in it but i think

[kayshia_kruger]: 43:09

yeah

[will_]: 43:09

to me what has helped is keeping a sense of humor about

[kayshia_kruger]: 43:13

i

[will_]: 43:13

it and about myself and you know as a sorter is never taking ourselves too seriously we can get on the other side of that and be able to laugh and relax as well i think that's nice balance

[kayshia_kruger]: 43:22

nice recharge awesome thanks

[will_]: 43:24

yes

[kayshia_kruger]: 43:24

so much well i appreciate your time and looking forward to having continued chat in the future

[will_]: 43:30

thank you i appreciate it very much