Paradigm Shifts Podcast

Narcissism in the C-Suite with Erika Weed

August 20, 2022 Kayshia Kruger / Erika Weed Season 1 Episode 1
Narcissism in the C-Suite with Erika Weed
Paradigm Shifts Podcast
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Paradigm Shifts Podcast
Narcissism in the C-Suite with Erika Weed
Aug 20, 2022 Season 1 Episode 1
Kayshia Kruger / Erika Weed

There's a noticeable uptick in the use of narcissism across social media to describe people in our personal and professional lives. In this episode, Erika Weed, dives deep into her dissertation research as a Doctoral candidate around how narcissistic traits show up in leadership, the impacts, and the benefits of narcissistic leadership to organizations.  She'll explain how to effectively manage work relationships with those who are higher in narcissistic traits and describe how organizations can support these leaders for the success of the leader and the organization. Tune in to the very end for Erika's take on her most recently encountered paradigm shift.

Guest Information
For more information about Erika's work as a talent development consultant and executive coach, check out the details below:

Ascendry provides transformational organizational data collection and analysis, talent development, and executive leadership coaching, scientifically grounded and business tested, for lasting change. Ascendry provides a full range of individual and organizational assessments and data analysis tools, full organizational talent development systems design, and expert team facilitation and executive coaching. Our mission is to make talent development accessible to every organization. Learn more at www.ascendry.com.

Support the Show.

Host Contact Information
Check back weekly for new episodes. Interested in being a guest on the podcast or inquiring about sponsorship opportunities, write to us at paradigmshiftspodcast@gmail.com.

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Show Notes Transcript Chapter Markers

There's a noticeable uptick in the use of narcissism across social media to describe people in our personal and professional lives. In this episode, Erika Weed, dives deep into her dissertation research as a Doctoral candidate around how narcissistic traits show up in leadership, the impacts, and the benefits of narcissistic leadership to organizations.  She'll explain how to effectively manage work relationships with those who are higher in narcissistic traits and describe how organizations can support these leaders for the success of the leader and the organization. Tune in to the very end for Erika's take on her most recently encountered paradigm shift.

Guest Information
For more information about Erika's work as a talent development consultant and executive coach, check out the details below:

Ascendry provides transformational organizational data collection and analysis, talent development, and executive leadership coaching, scientifically grounded and business tested, for lasting change. Ascendry provides a full range of individual and organizational assessments and data analysis tools, full organizational talent development systems design, and expert team facilitation and executive coaching. Our mission is to make talent development accessible to every organization. Learn more at www.ascendry.com.

Support the Show.

Host Contact Information
Check back weekly for new episodes. Interested in being a guest on the podcast or inquiring about sponsorship opportunities, write to us at paradigmshiftspodcast@gmail.com.

You can find us on multiple podcast platforms - wherever podcasts are listened to or watched: Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, Stitcher, Spotify, and YouTube, LinkedIn, TikTok.

Share us with your friends, colleagues, and co-workers and please leave a review, rate, and subscribe. Thank you for your support!

[kayshia_kruger]:

erica i am so excited for you to be here on this episode talking about narsisism in the case i've been thinking about this topic for weeks now and i don't if you've recognized the up take in the use of narsisism lately across social media i should have i'm seeing it on like nd i'm seeing people talk about it in instagramyour and your dissertation on this topic is that right

[erika_weed]:

i

[kayshia_kruger]:

okay

[erika_weed]:

am

[kayshia_kruger]:

so i want to know can you tell us more what are you working on and if you've noticed this topic turning why do you think that is

[erika_weed]:

so i think there's a lot of different reasons first of all the word narsisism comes from a greek fable as we all know and it became pretty popular with the advent of fred's pamphlet called on narsisism and since then it's become become kind of a favorite topic a lot of people want to talk about narcisists narsisism and i think in general there's kind of been a trend where an older generation will look at a younger generation and say you're self centered and you're all nurse iss and so this is a phenomenon that's not necessarily new what we have seen recently though is kind of a rise in um really up front outspoken specistic leaders

[kayshia_kruger]:

m

[erika_weed]:

and i think that that kind of public granddeocity is becoming something that everybody's taking note of and i think because of that it's become a really popular topic on social media and in the news but i think it's also become a pretty common word to us in the vernacular

[kayshia_kruger]:

i think it would be important to level set here and just get a definition of what narsisism really is like there is a big difference between at least in my research that i've done between someone who has died nose narcisistic personality to order to just having a span of those characteristics and would you agree or disagree like truth wise what do you what do you feel when it comes to narsisism everyone has characteristics of narcisism at some level right

[erika_weed]:

so it's really fun for everybody to kind of throw this word around and say you're a narcisist and i'm a narcisist and we're all narcisists what we're really talking about is a collection of traits inherent traits things that we're born things that are stable in our personalities and when they rise to a level where it interrupts our ability to maintain relationships with other people our ability to maintain productive work life or our ability to maintain self care then we say it's a disorder

[kayshia_kruger]:

m

[erika_weed]:

and so yeah narsisistic personality disorder is the characteristics of narsisism at such a level that it's interfering with your life now most of us however do carry around some of these traits and a lot of us exhibit them to one degree or another sub clinical way so when we talk about narsisism or when we talk about narsisism and leadership or narcisism in the workplace we have to make a really careful distinction here because we're talking about isn't a disorder it's not a clinical disorder what we're talking about is really personality

[kayshia_kruger]:

m

[erika_weed]:

trades and you have heard me say and i tell everybody that personality is not a prediction of performance

[kayshia_kruger]:

hm

[erika_weed]:

you may have certain things in your personality that are your preferences sometimes those preferences are really strong but they now or create behavior behavior is always chosen and so when we talk about narcisism and narsisistic people we have to remember that they may have some preferences towards specistic behavior in their personalities but that doesn't mean that they have to necessarily act a certain

[kayshia_kruger]:

interesting

[erika_weed]:

way

[kayshia_kruger]:

so you're saying if i have narsisistic personality trades that are really strong i can choose consciously to make a different decision to behave a different way to act a different way what i'm hearing

[erika_weed]:

as an absolutely so if any personality trait that you identify in yourself were feeling yourself is rising to the level where it's interfering with you reaching your goals then you always have an opportunity to either work on yourself and your own self development or find a partner or a wellness provider who is going to be able to help you kind of manage those behaviors yourself

[kayshia_kruger]:

you know my background in psychology i'm fascinated by narsisism and co dependency and all of those different topics what does narsisism look like if someone is truly you know narsisistic personalities or what are some examples of behaviors that would show up whether in the workplace or outside of the workplace because we're going to get to leadership in just a moment

[erika_weed]:

so um again you know our personalities don't predict performance and so we can see a lot of different behaviors from people who are higher in narsisism but what we want to really look at is where narsissm comes from people who are higher in narsisism have a deep and meaningful feeling of insecurity and and they lack in true self

[kayshia_kruger]:

m

[erika_weed]:

confidence

[kayshia_kruger]:

m

[erika_weed]:

and so somebody who's higher an narsisism because they're constantly trying to defend themselves from that perceived feeling of insecurity means that they will exhibit behaviors design to defend themselves from what they perceive is as sometimes that comes in the form of maybe building themselves up to look like they are better than they actually are sometimes even

[kayshia_kruger]:

m

[erika_weed]:

lying about characteristics that they have in order to make themselves seem more important or more professional or

[kayshia_kruger]:

m

[erika_weed]:

more powerful sometimes it looks like actively trying to subdue things that they perceive is threatening so if they find themselves in a position where they are in front of somebody that they think is more powerful than them you may you may see a narsisist or someone who's higher in narsisism looking at attacking that person and trying to make them seem less powerful because again the underlying theme of narsisism is i don't feel like i'm as good as i

[kayshia_kruger]:

yeah

[erika_weed]:

should be and so i have to force people to believe that i'm better than

[kayshia_kruger]:

it's

[erika_weed]:

i am

[kayshia_kruger]:

such a contradiction right internally their feeling not secure their feeling potentially unstable but the way that they project that out into the world is by listing and i heard grandiosity right like maybe even

[erika_weed]:

m

[kayshia_kruger]:

would you say tactics like manipulation things like that

[erika_weed]:

i think the question is what's going to work for that person in that particular

[kayshia_kruger]:

okay

[erika_weed]:

time again when we're looking at something like like when we're looking at a at a situation where somebody feels insecure um the threats to their ego or the threats to their self esteem can seem really dire and so they may choose really crazy behaviors to try and defend themselves and again you know we're not talking about something that rises to a clinical level but we are talking about somebody who's really trying to defend who they feel like

[kayshia_kruger]:

hm

[erika_weed]:

they are and i think for a lot of people who are higher in narsisism the lengths that they'll go to to defend themselves can be pretty extreme and so we want to look at the ways that we are perceiving the people around us the way that we're perceiving the threats around us to know if we're making the best decision in that

[kayshia_kruger]:

so

[erika_weed]:

moment

[kayshia_kruger]:

interesting thank you for sharing it seems like we've talked a little bit about anyone who's kind of exhibiting this toxic or unhealthy behavior is categorizedr labeled with it's a mental health term right as narsysist and and that can be damaging um and typically it's clinical psychologists license psychologist are the ones who are properly trained to diagnose someone with a narsisistic personality disorder i've had experience with narsisism in the past and some encounters with people with those traits may be higher narcism again not diagnosing the person but what would someone need to know if they were trying to manage a work relationship with someone who has narcisistic characteristics and like what are some safeguards

[erika_weed]:

so i think the most important thing is probably to set up

[kayshia_kruger]:

m

[erika_weed]:

good boundaries and this is going to be important in every relationship that all of us have all through our lives but the most important thing is to good boundaries again somebody who has higher who has high levels of narsisism an tend to feel like they're the most important person and therefore their issues or their problems or their goals are the most important issues or problems or goals and because of that it's quite natural for that pers and to say well my stuff is the most important so we're going to take care of that

[kayshia_kruger]:

hm

[erika_weed]:

first and i think that that kind of leads people to think okay well i'm going to take care of that first now and then next time you'll come back and you'll take care

[kayshia_kruger]:

yeah

[erika_weed]:

of me right lot of times we don't get back to the other person because again somebody who is constantly concerned with themselves their own self esteem their own self image building themselves up they don't think

[kayshia_kruger]:

m

[erika_weed]:

about other people they don't even have a chance to consider returning the favor and so what's the most important thing and it sounds counter productive because it's definitely going to trigger something and someone who's high narcisism is to say

[kayshia_kruger]:

m

[erika_weed]:

no thank you no thank you i don't want to do that no thank you i don't want to be there no thank you i don't want to give you my time for that no obviously when you tell somebody who thinks that they're the most important person that their issues are the most important issues and their goals are the most important goals know they're going to have a strong reaction because gain it comes back to what's going to threaten their perception of their own

[kayshia_kruger]:

m

[erika_weed]:

importance and by you saying no you're literally telling them you are not as important as me and it becomes a threat to them so while you may have some very strong push back from somebody who has hiyghnarsisism in their personality you will also be setting yourself up for the healthiest relationship with them by settin good healthy boundaries by recognizing how much time and energy you're going to allow that person

[kayshia_kruger]:

oh

[erika_weed]:

to take from you by recognizing how many opportunities you want to miss because you're working with that person by recognizing that sometimes their energy in the way that they're doing things particularly at work can be disruptive to you and sometimes you need to take a step back and leave and so the first thing that i would tell anyone who is working with or dealing with somebody who may be higher in narcicistic trades is learn to develop your own self esteem and learn to create good boundaries

[kayshia_kruger]:

that's

[erika_weed]:

in support

[kayshia_kruger]:

so

[erika_weed]:

of that

[kayshia_kruger]:

so good and like i'm just like no it's hard for people who maybe are hiring a commodation right who may have developed people pleasing i guess coping mechanisms throughout life so that's a difficult one and is setting boundaries is another whole another conversation that we can get into but when i think about you know when someone has hired a narsism what cause is that like how does that develop they're not people are born right in my wrong people aren't born with narsisism is that true tell me

[erika_weed]:

ah so people aren't technically born with any personality traits what we know is that about

[kayshia_kruger]:

a

[erika_weed]:

sixty to eighty percent of our personality is it comes from our genetics our genetic material our parents personalities were genetically predisposed to have certain personality traits the rest are developed in our very early childhood and usual somewhere between the ages of four and seven our personalities

[kayshia_kruger]:

m

[erika_weed]:

are set and so what we find is that people who are higher and narcisistic trades tend to have certain experiences very young that teach them that not only are they the most important person in their life but also that nobody else is really going to be able to a care of them like they can and that's one of the reasons why defending themselves and defending their self esteem is so important to them because they've had experiences early on that have taught them they're going to need that to

[kayshia_kruger]:

interesting

[erika_weed]:

survive

[kayshia_kruger]:

okay well that was setting like a base level like at ust you know level set with what narsisism is where it's coming from you know how we can catgrize and now i want to hear from you about what you're working on in your dissertation narsisism in leadership how do those two intersect tell me more

[erika_weed]:

there's a very specific line of literature that i absolutely fell in love with when i was in my doctoral program and it's called dark leadership and dark leadership is narcissus leaders mathievalian leaders and corporate psychopads um t is a very

[kayshia_kruger]:

yeah

[erika_weed]:

interesting line of literature should you ever feel the need to read through a bunch of pages of scientific articles um but really what it looks at is some of the most undesirable traits in personality and how they find themselves into leaders what we're seeing is that often for example in narsisism often people who are higher and narsisism self select into roles of power and authority

[kayshia_kruger]:

m

[erika_weed]:

again because they

[kayshia_kruger]:

m

[erika_weed]:

want their own self esteem and the traits of those leaders have become sort of the norm for leadership so command and control types of leadership umtarismatic leadership great man leadership having somebody at the top of your organization that you can look to who's going to inspire you who's going to take care of you who's going to protect you from all those threats and that tends to be white intriguing for a lot of different types of organizations often these kinds of leaders are very showy they get a lot of attention they get a lot of press often they have really big strategic goals very high level sometimes really innovative ideas and a lot of times they can really carry an organization far particularly when that organization is growing and changing quickly the challenge is that someone who's hiring narticism may not be an appropriate leader for every

[kayshia_kruger]:

m

[erika_weed]:

situation or every organization and what i'm working on is looking at where somebody with those characteristics would fit best we see that they are self selecting into leadership positions we see that they are popular at the top of organization as often and we see that they have some really positive outcomes when it comes to how they lead their organizations ut we also know really specific examples where people who are high and narsisism have done horrible things who have lied cheated people out of money ruined entire companies ruined lives and so the question is what's the difference between a steve jobs

[kayshia_kruger]:

i

[erika_weed]:

and elizabeth buttons

[kayshia_kruger]:

tell me more about that what do you mean by that

[erika_weed]:

i think that there are some very clear similarities between some of the greatest leaders in history and

[kayshia_kruger]:

m

[erika_weed]:

some of the worst and i think it's really important and something that hasn't been well addressed in academia in the leadership field but i think it's really important to look at what are some of the moderating influences what are some of the what is the context that we're looking at in these particular examples i think we need to understand um that it isn't just a person it isn't just a personality that you can plug into a specific position and watch it succeed there's no magic let what we need to understand more about is what are all the complex scenarios that interact with this particular personality type make it either very successful or wholly unsuccessful

[kayshia_kruger]:

you very just lightly dropped a twist in this whole conversation we're talking about narsisism and leadership and you just lightly put it down that narsisism potentially has benefits in leadership i don't know if anyone like i picked up on that right away i heard you say that there are potential benefits of narcistic leadership and i can understand how someone who has is hi or narcisism how they can self select into leadership roles what i can't understand is sustainability of them in those roles so getting there right especially at the most opportune time high pay growth of an organization maybe they're growing from small to mid to even large mid to large firms right i can see those characteristics like setting ambitious goals really supporting the phase of the organization and their growth phase at that time but my confusion is around sustainability because we could probably talk for hours about this but disfunctional cultures and how to ple like employee morale can you just help me you know synthesize all of these thoughts

[erika_weed]:

so first of all i am not the first person to imply that there may be some benefits

[kayshia_kruger]:

yeah

[erika_weed]:

for higher people who are higher in nartisism in positions of leadership just you touched on there are certainly a lot of examples of people who are ah spected of having hirnarcisism obviously i haven't sat down with steve jobs and i didn't analyze his personality so i can't say for sure but what we can say is that there are leaders who are suspected of having a high degree of narcisism who have done really amazing things for their organizations steve jobs is a perfect example you can look at certain types of church leaders there are types of um famous people certainly people who work in entertainment i mean there irrespective of industry there are some places where a narcysist could be very helpful again they are incredibly charismatic

[kayshia_kruger]:

hm

[erika_weed]:

which means that a lot of times they are interesting to listen to they are vangelizing people to the organization and certainly at the top of an organization if we're talking about the c suite the number one goal for an executive there is to make sure that they're raising money raising capital for their organization to continue on and so narsisis tend to be really effective there they also tend to pick up projects that other people

[kayshia_kruger]:

oh

[erika_weed]:

won't they have a very wrong sense of self and a sense of believe in their own success

[kayshia_kruger]:

i

[erika_weed]:

and so sometimes they're able to really push through and do things that other people just would have cut ties on and run and so for that reason we can see that there are successes for those who have higher who are higher in narsisism however just as you mentioned it tends to be that sustainable and so what we see is again a narcisist is going to push those boundaries they're going to get as much as they can get out of people and pot tally when they're set with some road blocks or some good boundaries they can step outside of what is normal protocol or even legal in order to accomplish their goals i think that's one of the reasons why it's so important for organizations who are looking for this kind of fast pace you know smooth talking really successful looking leader it's important to set up a system around them that it's going to make sure that they don't hurt themselves or the

[kayshia_kruger]:

and that's

[erika_weed]:

rganization

[kayshia_kruger]:

what i was going to ask you is it's awareness of this type of leader in this leadership role has to be absolutely critical whether it's other you know c suit members or the board you know having the awareness to be able to provide that support system and have those systems in place those tactics those safeguards so to speak has to be critical but how does some how do how do you get there how do organizations get there if they if there is someone who's like recognizing that there's potentially someone with higher narsisism in a really important critical key role in their company let's say swiss c set how do they get there

[erika_weed]:

so we've seen this happen before and i think one of the most interesting parts of the steve job story is when he stepped away from apple at its height and took a little adical and then was able to come back and re energize the organization in the same way that he did when he started it i think that sebatical was time for him to step away do some elf developments in self growth and really figure out what the most productive way to use his skills and his personality was going to be in order to drive the goals of that organization i think every other organization needs to encourage their leadership to do the same thing it is so important that people have a sense of self awareness

[kayshia_kruger]:

hm

[erika_weed]:

not necessarily even for publication there are very few leaders who will go through a public personality assessment and then broadcast their results to everybody who has it trust but i think it's the self awareness is the most important thing so allowing that person the space and giving them the encouragement to really do some

[kayshia_kruger]:

m

[erika_weed]:

reflection most people that i work with who have narcisistic traits don't actually want to hurt

[kayshia_kruger]:

m

[erika_weed]:

people but they feel like the damage that they do is kind of justified by the means that they're achieving in the end you know and or the end that they're

[kayshia_kruger]:

a coping

[erika_weed]:

achieving

[kayshia_kruger]:

mechanism

[erika_weed]:

with those means

[kayshia_kruger]:

right it's

[erika_weed]:

and

[kayshia_kruger]:

survival

[erika_weed]:

i think it's more it's

[kayshia_kruger]:

m

[erika_weed]:

a survival mechanism and i think that that there is a real need for that person to have the space and the support to recognize that that may not actually be the most productive ye way to handle situation so that's number one giving somebody that you suspect is higher and norsisism the space to do their own self work and development is a great idea i would not try to go and convince them that you know

[kayshia_kruger]:

oh

[erika_weed]:

what their personality is and i wouldn't try to convince them that

[kayshia_kruger]:

yes

[erika_weed]:

you know what the best thing for their personality is that's something that they can do with their coach with their mentor with their spouse with their therapist if they feel like they need one giving them that pace and time and the respect to do that self work that they need to do is first obviously the second step is the organizations if they

[kayshia_kruger]:

yeah

[erika_weed]:

see that they have a highly charismatic leader who is dogged in pursuing their goals and often does not take criticism or critique from anyone else i think now we need to think about setting up those good systems and boundaries around that person so making sure that the rest of the executive suite is there to support that person but also so provide a critical eye to some of their lands making sure that if there is a separate board that the board is prepared to provide guidance and boundaries to that person as well again someone who is higher in narsisism views their goals as just the most important goals in the world and so by setting up boundaries and by telling them now you will

[kayshia_kruger]:

hm

[erika_weed]:

get pushed bac but often that pushback ends up creating the kind of constructive conflict that

[kayshia_kruger]:

yeah

[erika_weed]:

actually leads to innovation

[kayshia_kruger]:

that's so interesting and you have to be someone who can handle the push back right to be able to not recoil when you get you know that strong push back and i'm curious to know narsisis even know their narsisis do they have that level of self awareness do they no

[erika_weed]:

i think that everybody has a different level of self awareness and i think it would be so difficult

[kayshia_kruger]:

m

[erika_weed]:

to quantify i know this about myself but you know in a quiet room when i'm not

[kayshia_kruger]:

you're

[erika_weed]:

really doing anything maybe i know a little bit more about myself i think the awareness piece is important for them to figure out um m but again i think everybody's awareness is different

[kayshia_kruger]:

i want to go back to this idea of like narcissus people hire narsisism like picking up if they're in leadership positions picking up extra projects right the projects no one wants to do that level of self efficacy is that driving is that driven from true self efficacy or something to prove

[erika_weed]:

so it's actually interesting a lot of times that i think it might have been michael jordan who said you miss a thousand you miss all the hundred percent of the shots you don't take i think there's a little bit of that in narsisism is that they're just more apt to take on projects to have stretch goals and so i think they are because of that quite successful oftentimes i think there's another part of it that is i would call it a useful delusion i think so sancarvadantem wrote a book called useful delusion a couple of years ago and it was about how all of us sort of telly ourselves little stories and and we make up little

[kayshia_kruger]:

sure

[erika_weed]:

scenarios in our head and sometimes they're true and sometimes they are not and sometimes the little stories that we tell ourselves can actually lead to an increased sense of self efficacy and increase and improvement in our

[kayshia_kruger]:

hm

[erika_weed]:

own self esteem and so sometimes just telling little lies or or making up little stories can be really useful in convincing us that we have the ability to be successful somebody who's higher an narsisism is just going to do that

[kayshia_kruger]:

hm

[erika_weed]:

kind of naturally and so because of that they're going to take more shots

[kayshia_kruger]:

he

[erika_weed]:

which means they're going to make more shots and that's going to create even more of a sense of f efficacy and self esteem in them which is going to allow them to go forward and be

[kayshia_kruger]:

oh

[erika_weed]:

more

[kayshia_kruger]:

yes

[erika_weed]:

old and be greater risk takers people who are high in norcism

[kayshia_kruger]:

i was just

[erika_weed]:

have

[kayshia_kruger]:

going to lead

[erika_weed]:

incredible

[kayshia_kruger]:

there

[erika_weed]:

risk

[kayshia_kruger]:

so

[erika_weed]:

tolerance

[kayshia_kruger]:

you that was a great segu so people you know in leadership positions with higher traits of narcisism will generally take on more risk there the risk takers as you mentioned like what how does that benefit the organization i can imagine it would benefit an organization if they're in like a high growth period but at the same time how could it ha i'm an organization

[erika_weed]:

again we got to look at the organization it's so important to

[kayshia_kruger]:

m

[erika_weed]:

consider the context some older

[kayshia_kruger]:

m

[erika_weed]:

legacy organizations paper companies railroads air lines they are stable they are set and somebody who has these kinds of traits coming into that organization might create so much of a stir that they actually create innovation they also might be able to tear the organization down because they've messed with things that were just fine again the goal of ah someone in the c suite is to really shepard the organization so that it continues after them there paring for future and i think for stable organizations um they may find you in somebody who's hiring nursism for that innovation i think for high growth new organization somebody with those characteristics can create a really kind of meat rise for the organism tion they can create intense growth there are amples where organizations especially in have really benefit benefited the kind of innovateoven and really in ideas that he's hiring art can put forward however as you alluded to there are some downside growth can't go forever no company grows at an insane pace forever you kind of have stat plateau in your a company life cycle i think another thing to watch out for when somebody sent having to do perhaps they will turn their energies towards unproductive problems oh the and maybe sign and you know somebody doesn't feel like they're doing enough if somebody

[kayshia_kruger]:

hm

[erika_weed]:

an executive doesn't feel like they're making an impact

[kayshia_kruger]:

oh

[erika_weed]:

like

[kayshia_kruger]:

that's

[erika_weed]:

they have

[kayshia_kruger]:

also

[erika_weed]:

to

[kayshia_kruger]:

very interesting and i want to think about

[erika_weed]:

do more

[kayshia_kruger]:

it we just have a few

[erika_weed]:

they

[kayshia_kruger]:

more

[erika_weed]:

may

[kayshia_kruger]:

minutes

[erika_weed]:

take

[kayshia_kruger]:

but

[erika_weed]:

risk

[kayshia_kruger]:

i want to think about this from the lens of being a manager

[erika_weed]:

wrong things they

[kayshia_kruger]:

who is reporting

[erika_weed]:

choose

[kayshia_kruger]:

to someone

[erika_weed]:

paths

[kayshia_kruger]:

who

[erika_weed]:

that are ultimately

[kayshia_kruger]:

maybe

[erika_weed]:

not

[kayshia_kruger]:

a narsisistic

[erika_weed]:

going to lead

[kayshia_kruger]:

leader and

[erika_weed]:

success

[kayshia_kruger]:

how

[erika_weed]:

for

[kayshia_kruger]:

does

[erika_weed]:

the

[kayshia_kruger]:

that

[erika_weed]:

organist

[kayshia_kruger]:

impact their career trajectory their

[erika_weed]:

because

[kayshia_kruger]:

growth

[erika_weed]:

they

[kayshia_kruger]:

within

[erika_weed]:

have

[kayshia_kruger]:

an organization because i can

[erika_weed]:

this

[kayshia_kruger]:

already

[erika_weed]:

energy

[kayshia_kruger]:

imagine

[erika_weed]:

and they don't have anywhere

[kayshia_kruger]:

to

[erika_weed]:

to

[kayshia_kruger]:

your

[erika_weed]:

put

[kayshia_kruger]:

point with you know the example

[erika_weed]:

a

[kayshia_kruger]:

you

[erika_weed]:

lot

[kayshia_kruger]:

gave about

[erika_weed]:

of times

[kayshia_kruger]:

picking

[erika_weed]:

when

[kayshia_kruger]:

up

[erika_weed]:

i

[kayshia_kruger]:

projects

[erika_weed]:

see

[kayshia_kruger]:

and wanting to take the things that you know

[erika_weed]:

people

[kayshia_kruger]:

other

[erika_weed]:

who

[kayshia_kruger]:

people

[erika_weed]:

are high

[kayshia_kruger]:

are not

[erika_weed]:

in nartiism

[kayshia_kruger]:

doing and setting

[erika_weed]:

come

[kayshia_kruger]:

these

[erika_weed]:

into

[kayshia_kruger]:

big

[erika_weed]:

organizations

[kayshia_kruger]:

ambitious goals

[erika_weed]:

when the organizations

[kayshia_kruger]:

they're

[erika_weed]:

are facing

[kayshia_kruger]:

the ones that want to be

[erika_weed]:

challenges

[kayshia_kruger]:

in the spot light right they're the ones that want to shine

[erika_weed]:

don't

[kayshia_kruger]:

in the organization so if they

[erika_weed]:

and

[kayshia_kruger]:

are

[erika_weed]:

they

[kayshia_kruger]:

threatened

[erika_weed]:

just swoop

[kayshia_kruger]:

potentially

[erika_weed]:

in

[kayshia_kruger]:

by other people outshining

[erika_weed]:

really

[kayshia_kruger]:

them

[erika_weed]:

make

[kayshia_kruger]:

let's

[erika_weed]:

up

[kayshia_kruger]:

say a direct report my

[erika_weed]:

big

[kayshia_kruger]:

mind is going

[erika_weed]:

splash

[kayshia_kruger]:

in all different

[erika_weed]:

and

[kayshia_kruger]:

direct

[erika_weed]:

they

[kayshia_kruger]:

and

[erika_weed]:

change

[kayshia_kruger]:

succession

[erika_weed]:

things and

[kayshia_kruger]:

planning

[erika_weed]:

the organization

[kayshia_kruger]:

and all

[erika_weed]:

comes

[kayshia_kruger]:

of this

[erika_weed]:

up

[kayshia_kruger]:

stuff are

[erika_weed]:

right

[kayshia_kruger]:

they

[erika_weed]:

here

[kayshia_kruger]:

going to be the type of leader if they don't

[erika_weed]:

is

[kayshia_kruger]:

have

[erika_weed]:

where

[kayshia_kruger]:

a

[erika_weed]:

that

[kayshia_kruger]:

level of

[erika_weed]:

narcissus

[kayshia_kruger]:

awareness

[erika_weed]:

went

[kayshia_kruger]:

that that kind of

[erika_weed]:

self distrust

[kayshia_kruger]:

it holds their team in place and doesn't allow

[erika_weed]:

the place

[kayshia_kruger]:

for that

[erika_weed]:

where

[kayshia_kruger]:

growth

[erika_weed]:

they don't have they've fixed off bums already ere no more problems and so they go hunting and then they make their problem to fix and that's all see sort of down turn in the leadership arc oh oh oh oh m oh oh

[kayshia_kruger]:

hm

[erika_weed]:

oh oh yeah oh oh ah oh what

[kayshia_kruger]:

hm

[erika_weed]:

oh yeah oh oh yeah yeah yes one per cent um and i think it starts with we talk you and i especially this is our field we a lot about leadership i think as we talk about leadership we really have to talk about followership as well because our followers have legation and responsibility so those who suspect that may be something see that they're working with some of the characteristics of a narcististent may be higher than those here's the first but i would say don't glorify that person just because they have a nice title doesn't mean that they are some sort of deity do no wrong we all have

[kayshia_kruger]:

m

[erika_weed]:

challenged our personalities we all have positive trades our personalities we all make mistakes sometimes i think it's really important to recognize that no matter how

[kayshia_kruger]:

hm

[erika_weed]:

great somebody they are or pretends to be they are still a person and they still have the potential to make mistakes so

[kayshia_kruger]:

yeah it's

[erika_weed]:

as

[kayshia_kruger]:

saying

[erika_weed]:

good

[kayshia_kruger]:

it's

[erika_weed]:

followers

[kayshia_kruger]:

not capable to record we stop there recording

[erika_weed]:

is our

[kayshia_kruger]:

to

[erika_weed]:

responsibility

[kayshia_kruger]:

avoid the file from

[erika_weed]:

to

[kayshia_kruger]:

getting

[erika_weed]:

look

[kayshia_kruger]:

lost

[erika_weed]:

at that

[kayshia_kruger]:

please

[erika_weed]:

person

[kayshia_kruger]:

lower the resolution in your settings

[erika_weed]:

as a whole person to say you know i

[kayshia_kruger]:

settings

[erika_weed]:

read

[kayshia_kruger]:

let's see

[erika_weed]:

at this trait that trade

[kayshia_kruger]:

yeah

[erika_weed]:

would fit really well with me i would like to adopt

[kayshia_kruger]:

see

[erika_weed]:

that trait in

[kayshia_kruger]:

you

[erika_weed]:

my leadership style

[kayshia_kruger]:

i don't

[erika_weed]:

or

[kayshia_kruger]:

know if you have to do anything

[erika_weed]:

this doesn't work

[kayshia_kruger]:

i'm just

[erika_weed]:

i don't

[kayshia_kruger]:

going to

[erika_weed]:

like

[kayshia_kruger]:

look

[erika_weed]:

that

[kayshia_kruger]:

at

[erika_weed]:

you

[kayshia_kruger]:

it

[erika_weed]:

did this to me and i'm definitely no

[kayshia_kruger]:

i mean my lor my resolution is optimized

[erika_weed]:

do that to another person

[kayshia_kruger]:

and

[erika_weed]:

i think one of the lunches that i have is executive coach is that a lot of people idolize certain leaders

[kayshia_kruger]:

okay

[erika_weed]:

and then try to adopt their higher personal

[kayshia_kruger]:

did it come

[erika_weed]:

you know holy on to themselves in

[kayshia_kruger]:

a

[erika_weed]:

to be better leaders and i think we need to look more at the duel traits and character

[kayshia_kruger]:

oh okay it

[erika_weed]:

it started over really

[kayshia_kruger]:

okay

[erika_weed]:

separate

[kayshia_kruger]:

god no

[erika_weed]:

out what's going

[kayshia_kruger]:

and

[erika_weed]:

to

[kayshia_kruger]:

i

[erika_weed]:

work

[kayshia_kruger]:

think

[erika_weed]:

for that situation

[kayshia_kruger]:

oh

[erika_weed]:

what's

[kayshia_kruger]:

i wonder

[erika_weed]:

going to work

[kayshia_kruger]:

if it

[erika_weed]:

for

[kayshia_kruger]:

saved your

[erika_weed]:

us

[kayshia_kruger]:

parts

[erika_weed]:

as individuals

[kayshia_kruger]:

of the video that feats

[erika_weed]:

if

[kayshia_kruger]:

oh

[erika_weed]:

and it making didn't we can do this again

[kayshia_kruger]:

okay i'm

[erika_weed]:

we're

[kayshia_kruger]:

sorry

[erika_weed]:

putting if you together want to check

[kayshia_kruger]:

still

[erika_weed]:

it and

[kayshia_kruger]:

learning

[erika_weed]:

no don't worry this is why you i do but first also ones with friends so that you could go through all these constructive things leadership and style just

[kayshia_kruger]:

and

[erika_weed]:

get it all out

[kayshia_kruger]:

yeah but oh my gosh this

[erika_weed]:

out

[kayshia_kruger]:

is so

[erika_weed]:

of

[kayshia_kruger]:

exciting

[erika_weed]:

all

[kayshia_kruger]:

i'm literally like so deep into this

[erika_weed]:

individual

[kayshia_kruger]:

conversation

[erika_weed]:

pieces

[kayshia_kruger]:

and this will be great because we can post you

[erika_weed]:

that's

[kayshia_kruger]:

know

[erika_weed]:

the first thing

[kayshia_kruger]:

edit

[erika_weed]:

don't

[kayshia_kruger]:

all of this

[erika_weed]:

idolize

[kayshia_kruger]:

out i'll have to chet

[erika_weed]:

we'll

[kayshia_kruger]:

but is

[erika_weed]:

just

[kayshia_kruger]:

it saying that you're recording now

[erika_weed]:

positions is of leadership saying that i'm recording just now because they seem

[kayshia_kruger]:

okay

[erika_weed]:

really

[kayshia_kruger]:

so then what

[erika_weed]:

cool

[kayshia_kruger]:

i'm gonna do i'm

[erika_weed]:

just

[kayshia_kruger]:

just

[erika_weed]:

because

[kayshia_kruger]:

going to mark the clip and then um

[erika_weed]:

beam really

[kayshia_kruger]:

like

[erika_weed]:

you know

[kayshia_kruger]:

pick back up where you left off

[erika_weed]:

going

[kayshia_kruger]:

and

[erika_weed]:

in

[kayshia_kruger]:

then

[erika_weed]:

carismatic

[kayshia_kruger]:

we'll just wrap up in a few

[erika_weed]:

i think

[kayshia_kruger]:

minutes

[erika_weed]:

another thing to remember was i is that

[kayshia_kruger]:

kind

[erika_weed]:

when you're working what with to somebody do if you're with a narcisist um

[kayshia_kruger]:

oh

[erika_weed]:

who

[kayshia_kruger]:

but i wanted

[erika_weed]:

is

[kayshia_kruger]:

to say about about that thought that you are sharing like the people

[erika_weed]:

laying the characteristics

[kayshia_kruger]:

around you know how you said that you have to

[erika_weed]:

narcisism

[kayshia_kruger]:

have like a nice support system around those individuals

[erika_weed]:

it really

[kayshia_kruger]:

that

[erika_weed]:

does

[kayshia_kruger]:

also

[erika_weed]:

come from

[kayshia_kruger]:

starts

[erika_weed]:

a place

[kayshia_kruger]:

to make

[erika_weed]:

of deep

[kayshia_kruger]:

me think

[erika_weed]:

insecurity

[kayshia_kruger]:

about the characteristics

[erika_weed]:

and

[kayshia_kruger]:

of

[erika_weed]:

i

[kayshia_kruger]:

those

[erika_weed]:

think

[kayshia_kruger]:

individuals

[erika_weed]:

that that's

[kayshia_kruger]:

that you have around them and being more intentional strategic

[erika_weed]:

ing

[kayshia_kruger]:

with that because what comes to

[erika_weed]:

to

[kayshia_kruger]:

mind is

[erika_weed]:

revile

[kayshia_kruger]:

you re you were saying

[erika_weed]:

or some

[kayshia_kruger]:

you know you have to some like

[erika_weed]:

to

[kayshia_kruger]:

passion

[erika_weed]:

judge

[kayshia_kruger]:

for this

[erika_weed]:

i think

[kayshia_kruger]:

being

[erika_weed]:

that's something

[kayshia_kruger]:

a human being right and

[erika_weed]:

to

[kayshia_kruger]:

they

[erika_weed]:

be really

[kayshia_kruger]:

are you know suffering in some ways and and so i think that you know having some people

[erika_weed]:

about

[kayshia_kruger]:

around

[erika_weed]:

and it seems

[kayshia_kruger]:

that you know

[erika_weed]:

again

[kayshia_kruger]:

are in that support system that

[erika_weed]:

it seems

[kayshia_kruger]:

you know have emotional

[erika_weed]:

really

[kayshia_kruger]:

regulation

[erika_weed]:

antithetical

[kayshia_kruger]:

abilities

[erika_weed]:

to think that

[kayshia_kruger]:

who

[erika_weed]:

you

[kayshia_kruger]:

are

[erika_weed]:

know somebody

[kayshia_kruger]:

high and emotional

[erika_weed]:

who

[kayshia_kruger]:

intelligence

[erika_weed]:

behaves

[kayshia_kruger]:

who

[erika_weed]:

in

[kayshia_kruger]:

are

[erika_weed]:

a way

[kayshia_kruger]:

empathetic

[erika_weed]:

that's

[kayshia_kruger]:

who

[erika_weed]:

wrong

[kayshia_kruger]:

can display

[erika_weed]:

or that

[kayshia_kruger]:

compassion

[erika_weed]:

hurts you that you should

[kayshia_kruger]:

and

[erika_weed]:

care for them but ultimately

[kayshia_kruger]:

would would agree

[erika_weed]:

that's

[kayshia_kruger]:

with

[erika_weed]:

where

[kayshia_kruger]:

you on

[erika_weed]:

a

[kayshia_kruger]:

what

[erika_weed]:

relation

[kayshia_kruger]:

you've been talking about is self esteem if you

[erika_weed]:

he

[kayshia_kruger]:

can

[erika_weed]:

starts

[kayshia_kruger]:

build your

[erika_weed]:

if

[kayshia_kruger]:

own

[erika_weed]:

you

[kayshia_kruger]:

self esteem up if you have high self esteem in your

[erika_weed]:

have

[kayshia_kruger]:

around

[erika_weed]:

to

[kayshia_kruger]:

norsisism you can set those

[erika_weed]:

somebody

[kayshia_kruger]:

boundaries

[erika_weed]:

who's displaying

[kayshia_kruger]:

you're not absorbing or internalizing

[erika_weed]:

ristics

[kayshia_kruger]:

anything that they're projecting on

[erika_weed]:

recognized

[kayshia_kruger]:

to you and you have the mind set of what

[erika_weed]:

peace

[kayshia_kruger]:

they're

[erika_weed]:

in yourself

[kayshia_kruger]:

saying even though it's callous is not about me

[erika_weed]:

there

[kayshia_kruger]:

it's about them right

[erika_weed]:

i think this because i think that they that's don't an excellent have a way better to sum option it up you have because to find they people feel or so develop negatively people about to put around that person who are both s that they really pathetic can't and high and emotional intelligence means right now but also and i think strong and self assured that goes and a long way to that's very ind few of people soothing i don't even know that i would necessarily qualify of us who for that work position with people who are higher all and the a time and so

[kayshia_kruger]:

hm

[erika_weed]:

it's really and because important that they as can you say look really at structuring an organization or rude a system things around and they narcysism that you also do create really systems rude where the people who supporting that narsisist they can be callous have and their selfish own and support self centered remember and somebody they can hurt

[kayshia_kruger]:

m

[erika_weed]:

somebody who is higher

[kayshia_kruger]:

yeah

[erika_weed]:

in at narcisism the end of the day believes that the accomplishment you know of their goals is the most important thing so they're going to take the path of leave lease resistance even if that means exploiting people's weaknesses

[kayshia_kruger]:

self

[erika_weed]:

manipulate

[kayshia_kruger]:

preservation right

[erika_weed]:

yes

[kayshia_kruger]:

he

[erika_weed]:

and so for

[kayshia_kruger]:

some

[erika_weed]:

them it's life or death so remember to put people on them who are more difficult to exploit who maybe don't have as many weaknesses that could be targeted because again

[kayshia_kruger]:

m

[erika_weed]:

it is so important to give that person an opportunity if they have characteristics of narcisism they need an opportunity to self develop but you can't force them to self develop you can only make it there in their best interests self developed and so you can do that by creating good boundaries good systems around them putting people around them who are already developed or who are working on themselves and that creates environment where it's not only useful and helpful for that person to develop to more productive characteristics of their trades but also that it's as

[kayshia_kruger]:

m

[erika_weed]:

them which is important for somebody who is struggling with an internal feeling that they are not safe and not enough

[kayshia_kruger]:

ah just my mind is blown up with all of these other questions and thoughts and and we talked about so many different aspects of narsisism and leadership and narsisis and the c suite and how it can benefit an organization and that's usually not the story that we're hearing right and and so it's such an important i think conversation to have i immediately want to go into psychological safety of the employes around them and that's just my my mind going in a bunch of different directions we can talk for hours about this but i think this is a great first come station side so i'll just love to invite you back in a future episode we can continue the conversation on and i like to end the episodes with a final question and i didn't tell you about that so you're going to be like on the spot a little bit but to stay true to the paradimeshifts concept of this podcast i'd like to ask you what's the recent paradimeshift that you've whether it's related to this work that you're doing or anything outside of that what's the most recent paradymeship that you've encountered

[erika_weed]:

i think maybe it's not a shift that i've encountered but it's one that i see coming um

[kayshia_kruger]:

m

[erika_weed]:

what i'm looking at you know i study nor some in academia but my work is talent development and what i'm seeing with the pandemic and with a real shift in technology is we're getting closer to what i call full integration of work we're currently having a lot of conversations about where people work and how much they work and what we can put in their work to make them work better and how we can select personalities for good work and i think one of the things i'm watching kind of come towards the field of talent development is the idea that we can structure work to fully integrate with an individual's life that means you don't have to worry about nine to five monday through friday um no holidays on this specific day take your thirty minute lunch where a specific outfit to work you know these things are distractions and i think that technology and an emphasis on well being at work is going to push work into a place where it's more fully integrated with our lives where you can send off an email an important email where while you're pouring your morning coffee and then you can go play with your dog for fifteen minutes come back write you know a report or have your morning meetings go out to lunch with your staff or cook a good meal at home maybe drive into the office a couple of days a week to really have team building skill skill building and then you know come home and take a four day weekend just because you feel

[kayshia_kruger]:

oh

[erika_weed]:

like it

[kayshia_kruger]:

wow

[erika_weed]:

o me to me it sounds like heaven right

[kayshia_kruger]:

hm

[erika_weed]:

and i think that there are more and more people and more and more organizations who are supporting living that kind of life where you don't have a work life and a

[kayshia_kruger]:

yeah

[erika_weed]:

home life you work

[kayshia_kruger]:

i

[erika_weed]:

in your life you fully integrate accomplishing your purpose with who you are as a person and i think that that to me is a paradimeshift that i am watching

[kayshia_kruger]:

make

[erika_weed]:

on the horizon and i'm excited to see it you know kind of unfold in our in our environment now and i'm i'm hoping that it is coming soon

[kayshia_kruger]:

oh my goodness a couple of words come to mind quality of life and

[erika_weed]:

oh

[kayshia_kruger]:

i'm also seeing but you know you're bringing it to the surface it just makes me more you know cognitive of it it's just such an amazing thing to watch and so many people have access to this type of integration because they work with an organization that have those resources in me that leadership to lead the charge but not everyone does and so what i'm hearing you say is that might become more wide spread where you know the person an individual contributor may be would have those capability is are that um free style to the way that their work in life is integrated is that what i'm hearing

[erika_weed]:

i think you can start with individual contributors i see no reason that teams could not work this way i see no reason why organizations couldn't work this way as well i think it would take a shift in the way that we do things and our expectations of people i think a lot of things would need to change for us to get there but i think it is such a worthy goal and i think it would create so much more productivity and so much better quality of life and just general pleasantness that i think i see no reason why

[kayshia_kruger]:

oh

[erika_weed]:

this would not be a priority for every organization and say fifty years

[kayshia_kruger]:

yes

[erika_weed]:

in fifty years

[kayshia_kruger]:

i

[erika_weed]:

our grandchildren will for us that we went into an office

[kayshia_kruger]:

oh

[erika_weed]:

forty hours a week now

[kayshia_kruger]:

m

[erika_weed]:

fifty weeks out of the year and they will laugh hysterically

[kayshia_kruger]:

i

[erika_weed]:

at

[kayshia_kruger]:

love

[erika_weed]:

us

[kayshia_kruger]:

it now that's so good so good and we spend like i talked about in this podcast seventy percent or more three quarters of our lifetime at work if we're not enjoying it right if we don't he a sense of quality of life all around like how are we maximizing our human potential how are we living our best lives so i want to

[erika_weed]:

you yeah

[kayshia_kruger]:

this has been such a pleasure erica and i just want to wrap up and just say thank you so much for joining me today in this conversation and there's obviously so many more conversations that we can and need to have i can get you on in a future episode so thank you so much

[erika_weed]:

it was a pleasure being here i appreciate you inviting me i'm always happy to talk about my favorite topic

[kayshia_kruger]:

oh

[erika_weed]:

narsisist and i'm even more happy to hear what you're doing in the paradems that shifting and listening to more of your more of your guests talk about what they're doing in this

[kayshia_kruger]:

awesome

[erika_weed]:

work

[kayshia_kruger]:

thank you well let's shift some paradimes

[erika_weed]:

yeah

[kayshia_kruger]:

all right

Show Intro
Guest Intro
Uptick in use of "Narcissism"
Difference between NPD and having narcissistic traits
What does narcissistic traits look like?
Safeguards for managing a work relationship with someone higher in narcissism
What to do when saying "no" is hard; setting boundaries
How does leadership and narcissism intersect?
Narcissistic leaders can benefit an organization?
If narcissism traits exist in the c-suite, how do organizations provide a support system?
Psychological safety of teams surrounding narcissistic type leaders
What's the most recent paradigm shift you've encountered?